Buying a car: THE FINANCIAL SIDE!

[TNathe]

Here is the deal guys and I would like input from anyone, but especially those who may be in the business of selling cars (salesman, FINANCE MANAGERS, etc.)

My g/f is looking to buy an '02 TrailBlazer w/ 45,000 miles on it. She has a trade in worth ~$4,000 according to NADAguides.com but owes $8200 on it due to her using it as collateral for another loan. So as she stands she is $4200 in the hole and we would like to minimize that as much as possible.

Now the TrailBlazer she is looking at NADA values at $16,500. soo..

TrailBlazer value - 16,500
Trade in value (4000)
________
12,500
Prev. loan payoff 8,200
________
20,700
Taxes 770
Tag transfer 50
________
Out the door 21,520


Now I have already talked him down $1500 from their original asking price and as it sits, $21,000 out the door price. IS their room for further negotiation, because even at 21,000 dollars she is still upside down 4500. 300 MORE than what she previously was and my goal here is to LESSEN the amount she's in the hole.

Any input would be greatly appreciated and also this could be a good reference for those looking to purchase a car w/o getting ripped off.

[_Charles_]

Go to carmax...and see what they offer for her car, use that as a guideline.

and not to rain on your parade, but the Chevy Trailblazer is a piece of shit. Consumer Reports hates it (but they like the TAhoe) and $16,500 is WAY TOO much for it. I'd shoot for $13,500 max...but I wouldn't buy it either way.

Charles

[_Charles_]

Honestly, with all the 'employee pricing' programs on new cars, and the fact that she is looking at spening $20k on a 2002 (which is ridiculous), I don't see why you don't consider a new car.

What are your requirements?

Charles

[Charles]

Honestly, with all the 'employee pricing' programs on new cars, and the fact that she is looking at spening $20k on a 2002 (which is ridiculous), I don't see why you don't consider a new car.

What are your requirements?

Charles

+1, No haggle price on a brand new 2WD LS 1SA optioned Trailblazer is $21,416...so that 02 is worth nowhere near 16k in the real world

[TNathe]

requirements are, TrailBlazer, haha, and financed for 20k or less. Remember, she is upsidedown by 4k on her car currently. soo one must take that into account. I honestly dont see why they gave it bad reviews. Been driving it for the last 2 days and it handles great (for an SUV) and that mother***** has got some serious brakes! Turning radius is tight as a mofo and for a v6 it is peppy as hell. Probably the gearing but still...she is set on that vehicle, that is what she wants, and she will not settle for anything other than a TrailBlazer.

EDIT: was just searching CARMAX and found out they are selling their vehicles for 15k. So unless I can get the the 21k final price to 19,500 I am telling them to have a lovely day.

[TNathe]

21416+4000=25416 which = outta price range.

EDIT: plus tax tag and title = somewhere probably around 27k or better. And CARMAX is not the only one who can offer those prices, I will use their prices as leverage against this dealership since it is local and we've been screwin with them for the last 2 days. But hey, if it don't work out she at least KNOWS she wants a TrailBlazer since shes been driving it for the last 2 days. haha, I wanna see if they would do that with the vette they have. :lol:

[_Charles_]

CR Bad Bets

Be especially careful when considering these models. They have shown several years of much-worse-than-average overall reliability in their 1997 to 2004 models. They are listed alphabetically.


Audi A6
BMW 7 Series
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Express1500
Chevrolet S-10 (4WD)
Chevrolet TrailBlazer
Chrysler Town & Country (AWD)
Dodge Dakota (4WD)
Dodge Grand Caravan (AWD)
Ford Windstar
GMC Envoy
GMC Jimmy
GMC Safari
GMC Savana 1500
GMC Sonoma (4WD)
Jaguar S-Type
Jaguar X-Type
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Land Rover Discovery
Lincoln Navigator
Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6)
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz M-Class
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Plymouth Neon
Pontiac Aztek
Saturn Vue
Volkswagen Golf
Volkswagen Jetta
Volkswagen
New Beetle
Volvo S80



here is the 'good list' (and everything else falls in between)

CR Good Bets

These are the best of both worlds: vehicles that have performed well in Consumer Reports road tests over the years and have proved to have several or more years of better-than-average overall reliability. They are listed alphabetically.


Acura Integra
Acura MDX
Acura RL
Acura RSX
Acura TL
Buick Regal
Chevrolet/Geo Prizm
Chrysler PT Cruiser
Ford Crown Victoria
Ford Escort, ZX2
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Honda CR-V
Honda Odyssey
Honda Prelude
Honda S2000
Infiniti G20
Infiniti I30, I35
Infiniti Q45

Infiniti QX4
Lexus ES300, ES330
Lexus GS300/ GS400,
GS430
Lexus IS300
Lexus LS400, LS430
Lexus RX300, RX330
Lincoln Town Car
Mazda 626
Mazda Millenia
Mazda MX-5 Miata
Mazda Protegé
Mercury Grand Marquis
Mercury Tracer
Mitsubishi Galant
Nissan Altima
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Pathfinder

Subaru Forester
Subaru Impreza
Subaru Legacy
Subaru Outback
Toyota 4Runner
Toyota Avalon
Toyota Camry
Toyota Camry Solara
Toyota Celica
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Echo
Toyota Highlander
Toyota Land Cruiser
Toyota Prius
Toyota RAV4
Toyota Sequoia
Toyota Sienna
Toyota Tundra


I know from experience. I was so close to getting a trailblazer (used) myself...but I finally talked myself out of it and got a 4runner...best decision I ever made.

Charles

[TNathe]

she really wants a 4Runner too, but 4Runner = out of price range yet again. This vehicle is still under warranty from the factory. There are No 4Runners for under 15k. Just searched.

[Just Dave]

With her being that much upside down, she may not be able to get financed. No lender is going to lend $21k on a car that can be had for $15k on the market. If they do, they will ass rape her on interest.

Last year a friend of mine had an LS1 Trans Am that had a rod knock in it. He was $6k in the hole so we went around to the dealers and found that Ford was willing to knock $6k off sticker for an F150. So basically he financed sticker price which the bank liked. Of course he's still upside down $6k since everyone else who bought an F150 paid $6k less, but at least he's got a dependable vehicle that he can afford.

Moral of the story, if your girlfriend is $4500 in the hole, she shouldn't be so picky about what new car she gets. She should find the best way to get financed.

[corey r.]

$4500 in the hole, OUCH! beggers cant be chosers!

I think Fordified is right about a 21k loan on a 16k car. Banks dont like to do that.

[TNathe]

exactly, when it comes down to it, the truck is still 6k in the hole maybe more for taxes and tag transfer. She can have what she WANTS and WILL maintain the in-the-hole figure no matter what she gets. NO dealership is gonna GIVE her 4200 off the price of a vehicle. I am just trying to minimize it.

SO as it stands I will offer them 19,500 for the deal out the door which puts her from being $4200 in the hole to 3,000 in the hole and a MUCH better interest rate. somewhere around 6%.

Those cock mongers were asking 18 for the vehicle BEFORE any negotiations or anything. so if I get this to go through I will have talked them down 3k which IS 1500 below NADA value no matter how look at it.

[Charles]

Moral of the story, if your girlfriend is $4500 in the hole, she shouldn't be so picky about what new car she gets. She should find the best way to get financed.

Definitely some truth in that, GM is giving away most of there new cars so rolling 4500 negative in wouldn't be a problem since banks will typically lend 100% of MSRP if your credit is decent.

[corey r.]

How much debt can she handle? Me? I hate car debt. Maybe it would be better to hold onto the car she has for a while?

[TNathe]

her car right now is an 01 Focus, She HATES it. And it has 87k miles on it. Once it reaches 90k or 100k she will get SHIT for it.

[TNathe]

Definitely some truth in that, GM is giving away most of there new cars so rolling 4500 negative in wouldn't be a problem since banks will typically lend 100% of MSRP if your credit is decent.

the problem is (we've considered this), is that they will not give their vehicles away for a low enough price so that when the rollover is stacked on the buying price (even though it can be financed), it will be too expensive.

[Charles]

Gotcha, sounds like it might be time to look at something slightly cheaper:)...but like you said, it's what she wants :razz:

[TIM TIM TIM]

they will take more then 4200 off a car. trust me. They took about 3000 off my used mustang and took a little over SIX THOUSAND off my moms avalanche. yes SIX, it was 34000 sticker and she got it for 28,000

[TNathe]

tell me more how she got 6k taken off. That was with no trade? Im interested in how she did that.

[John]

buying a GM vehicle, she's going to be more upside down in no time, they don't hold their value too well (as you can see with the Ford also). She is going to pay more in the long run for her inpatience.

[TNathe]

she was actually pretty even on her focus, but she ran into some medical problems and needed to pay off that and some other bills. So she had to use her car for collatteral for another loan.

[Steve B]

IMO, its not time to buy a car, you need to get out of being upside down. your just going to dig a bigger hole for yourself.

[TIM TIM TIM]

she is a good bullshitter and she knows what she wants and how much she wants it for. you know how they always try to sell you the more expencive car, well tell them you will take it for x amount of dollars (obv a number way lower then the sticker) they will either say they can or cant do it. alot of times they say they will, then they will come back with a little bit higher number. tell them no i want this pice and you said you can do it, now i want the car for that price. doesnt always work, but if you want a good deal you should be ready to go to a few diff lots.

[TNathe]

we're deff not gonna sign any paperwork until things are done the way I want them to be. If not I will walk out, they will either stop me or I'll find the deal I (well she) wants. I have determined 19,500 final price is where Im going to get it. If I pull that off it will be 1k LESS than CARMAX's price. hehe.

[TIM TIM TIM]

damn I agree that she needs to find a differant car. those are nice and all, but there are way better for a better price imo.

[Amortized]

She is already upside down. If something has bad reviews from someplace like CR, chances are it won't hold its resale value very long. I would suggest you have her look at something that will hold its resale value. Its the only way not to financially take a double whammy on this purchase, or no whammy if she stayed with what she has.

[Amortized]

she really wants a 4Runner too, but 4Runner = out of price range yet again. This vehicle is still under warranty from the factory. There are No 4Runners for under 15k. Just searched.

what about some higher mileaged 4runners? Toyota makes a hell of a reliable car. If she's gonna keep it for awhile, I'd suggest it. ONLY if she's gonna keep it AWHILE!

[TNathe]

thanks everyone for the replies. I talked her into looking for a NEW SUV, preferrably the new Xterras since my uncle is finance manager at Jenkins Nissan in Lakeland. The only way for her to come out of being upside down in her loan is to buy 5k under sticker price.

[_Charles_]

thanks everyone for the replies. I talked her into looking for a NEW SUV, preferrably the new Xterras since my uncle is finance manager at Jenkins Nissan in Lakeland. The only way for her to come out of being upside down in her loan is to buy 5k under sticker price.

$5k under sticker is not impossible these days, trust me.

Look here, All credit unions will finance 100% of MSRP of new vehicles, some will do the same for used.

2003 4runner with 45k miles on it
NADA Retail (used): $24,300
What I paid: $18,900
Difference: $5400

Now you understand why I went to MAryland to pick up my truck. Of course, I wasn't upside down, but I wanted the equity in a truck that I knew was going to hold it value.

Check www.cars.com , it is now my favorite used car site. Consider traveling further for a good deal, you'll thank yourself in the end.

Charles

[Just Dave]

Just realize that you'll still be upside down on that new vehicle. You aren't the only person on the planet that is getting that $5k below sticker break. So when you go to sell it, those that weren't upside down at the time of purchase will be able to sell theirs for less and still pay off their loan, where as you will still have that extra $5k you paid hanging over your head.

[_Charles_]

which is why I say scour the earth for a good deal on a late-model car, just like I did. I could roll that $5k negative equity into my truck and not be too far from re-sale value.

Charles

[BigBadBuick]

thanks everyone for the replies. I talked her into looking for a NEW SUV, preferrably the new Xterras since my uncle is finance manager at Jenkins Nissan in Lakeland. The only way for her to come out of being upside down in her loan is to buy 5k under sticker price.

I was reading through this and laughing at how everyone is trying to talk her out of what she wants when the thread clearly was asking for advice on the financial aspect of the deal, then I read this and laughed out loud. If your uncle is the finance manager at a Nissan dealership, first, you need to be looking at Nissans, second, you need to be asking him for advice, not TF :lmao:

[TNathe]

:lol: I was hoping you'd come in and give your $0.02. I think my uncle is still screwing us. My mother went and looked at a NEW Titan w/ a sticker price of 28k. He told her that she would get the truck at auction price - some more. He came back with giving her 14k on a 18k vehicle all day long and the Titan for 24,xxx. :lol: I dont think he is giving my mother that great of a deal either.

I asked him for advice and he said nothing more than, if she buys a TrailBlazer she will be further upside down because the domestic market is in the pits. < his words. So I said well, she knows what she wants, and she is gonna get what she wants so thanks for the help on dealing with these guys. GOSH! DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT I SAID "She IS getting a TrailBlazer"?

[BigBadBuick]

Well, if you can't trust your uncle you have two options. 1) Keep the focus and pay it down some before trying to trade it, it's not depreciating at anywhere near the rate now as it was when first purchased so keeping it for a while longer isn't going to kill her, only aggravate her by not getting what she wants now. I believe I read 87k for mileage earlier, 90k, even 100k isn't going to make a bit of difference because there isn't a new car dealer out there that is going to keep a 2001 with 87k on their lot. It's going to the auction either way. 2) Take it in the ass and enjoy it :lol: Average trade in on whatever she decides to buy is going to be less than she pays for it (believe it or not, car dealers are trying to make money, lol), so going into something else with an upside down trade and no cash to buy down her deficit is going to put her in an even worse situation no matter what super elite import these guys tell her to buy :lol:

[John]

so basically you just reiterated the same thing we all knew all along, but denied GM's history of losing resale value. :dunno:

[BigBadBuick]

so basically you just reiterated the same thing we all knew all along, but denied GM's history of losing resale value. :dunno:


No John, this is a financial issue, not a manufacturer issue. She is extremely upside down right now, she will only be further upside down if she buys something else. You can play your childish games and bash GM, but that is doing her a disservice because at the end of the day, she'll be just as fucked in a Toyota, just as fucked in a Nissan, just as fucked in a Ford. The question was about the financial aspect, and that's what I answered. It's not really my fault if no one else could stay on topic. If she stays in the high mileage Ford (oh no, they don't hold resale either, damn american pieces of shit), she'll be better off than if she trades into anything. Sorry I tried to give good advice without tainting it with personal biases, maybe you should try it sometime.

PS, read the title of the thread :wink:

[corey r.]

No John, this is a financial issue, not a manufacturer issue. She is extremely upside down right now, she will only be further upside down if she buys something else. You can play your childish games and bash GM, but that is doing her a disservice because at the end of the day, she'll be just as fucked in a Toyota, just as fucked in a Nissan, just as fucked in a Ford. The question was about the financial aspect, and that's what I answered. It's not really my fault if no one else could stay on topic. If she stays in the high mileage Ford (oh no, they don't hold resale either, damn american pieces of shit), she'll be better off than if she trades into anything. Sorry I tried to give good advice without tainting it with personal biases, maybe you should try it sometime.

PS, read the title of the thread :wink:

Rep points!

[Graves]

Upside down is upside down. When the time comes to get rid of the newq vehicle it will be upside down unless it's paid off. This is partially the reason I lease my vehicles till I decide to buy one I will keep for more than 2-3 years. When my lease is up I roll into a new car/truck and have nothing owed from the previous lease unless I am over mileage. Granted I am paying for something I will not own, but if I plan on getting rid of it anyway why pay higher payments and loose money on it? I see people every day at work who are adding up to 10k to their cars due to negative equity. Personally I think she'd be better off with a new vehicle due to the employee pricing and rebates could almost kill most of the negative equity if not all of it.

[BigBadBuick]

Personally I think she'd be better off with a new vehicle due to the employee pricing and rebates could almost kill most of the negative equity if not all of it.

I agree to a point, but the problem there is that if rebates, employee pricing, or whatever they call it at the time go on for too long, the used market will adjust and then the MSRP means nothing. Obviously a buyer for any big dealer isn't going to buy a year old model planning on trying to get as much or more than new ones are going for because it would sit on their lot forever. The same thing happened with 0% financing, the year or two old market just died when people realized they could buy a new car cheaper than a year or two old model. I would also suggest that the 0% deals have had A LOT to do with GM's not holding their value, 0% shot resale value in the foot because it made buying a new vehicle cheaper than buying a year old model which is NOT how it's supposed to be. I'd say employee pricing will do the same if it's around much longer. Back when they were doing all the 0% advertising I joked around that they'd have to give rebates and 0% to sell anything the next year, and what do we have now? Employee pricing :lol: Buying something brand new with rebates may solve her immediate deficit on the focus on paper, but you and I both know if she drove across town and tried to trade or sell her brand new vehicle, they aren't going to give her anywhere near what she just paid so she's back to square one with 5 more years of payments. It's honestly a lose lose, that's why I presented my two options :lol:

[Graves]

I agree. We had a gentle man who owed $8500 on a $4000 ranger. Thats $4500 in the hole already in getting a new car. So we got him to get a cheaper F150 with the rebate at $500 over invoice(2k less that the "Family Price"). He was able to wash his hands clean of the ass raping some used car lot in Tampa gave him on his old truck and still ended up paying less on his new truck than what the bank was going to finance him for.


Oh and BTW I don't know how the GM side works but the people buying at the Ford Price are still paying a grank or two higher than what a employee pays on the average.

[BigBadBuick]

Oh and BTW I don't know how the GM side works but the people buying at the Ford Price are still paying a grand or two higher than what a employee pays on the average.

Of course. I said something about this in another thread, employee pricing is nothing more than a fancy name for a rebate, sure has people all worked up though, doesn't it? :)

[Graves]

Of course. I said something about this in another thread, employee pricing is nothing more than a fancy name for a rebate, sure has people all worked up though, doesn't it? :)


Yeah but for our customer base they would get pissed if that is what they were given a price at. Much easier to sell 5-10 cars at $500 over in voice than to try to haggle someone into a single car. I loved Mitsubishsi's 0 % intrests a few years ago and the no paymetns for a year..... I saw so many people get jerked around on that.

[John]

No John, this is a financial issue, not a manufacturer issue. She is extremely upside down right now, she will only be further upside down if she buys something else. You can play your childish games and bash GM, but that is doing her a disservice because at the end of the day, she'll be just as fucked in a Toyota, just as fucked in a Nissan, just as fucked in a Ford. The question was about the financial aspect, and that's what I answered. It's not really my fault if no one else could stay on topic. If she stays in the high mileage Ford (oh no, they don't hold resale either, damn american pieces of shit), she'll be better off than if she trades into anything. Sorry I tried to give good advice without tainting it with personal biases, maybe you should try it sometime.

PS, read the title of the thread :wink:

Amazingly you and I are in complete agreement, but yet you have to taint this thread with your obvious objection to my remarks of GM's resale value. It's not personal opinion, it is fact. Here is one of a few articles easily found by everyone's favorite search engine, google.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/26/Autos/chrysler_ad/

ALG (Automotive Lease Guide, a California-based company that provides estimates of the resale value of vehicles.]estimated that the average Chrysler vehicle would retain 41.8 percent of its value after three years while GM would maintain just 39.8 percent of its original price, according to the report.

All three Detroit automakers - GM, Chrysler and Ford, which posted a 40.9 residual value - all fell below the industry-wide average of 44.3 percent, according to ALG data cited by the report.
Sorry to pick bones, but when someone calls my character and motive into question, of course I am entitled to defend myself. As you can see, this isn't personal bias, this is consumer bias.

Again, I reiterate, your best bet is not to get a new car.

PS if you don't have gap insurance you'd be very wise to pick that up.

[Charles]

I'll sum it up like this, I say if she's upside now and doesn't care, why not be slightly upside in something she WANTS to drive around instead of upside down in something she dislikes? Just get the GAP insurance and be happy...:dunno:

[Steve B]

ALG (Automotive Lease Guide, a California-based company that provides estimates of the resale value of vehicles.]estimated that the average Chrysler vehicle would retain 41.8 percent of its value after three years while GM would maintain just 39.8 percent of its original price, according to the report.

All three Detroit automakers - GM, Chrysler and Ford, which posted a 40.9 residual value - all fell below the industry-wide average of 44.3 percent, according to ALG data cited by the report.


what color of cunt hairs are you splitting with that less than %5 difference, red ones or black ones?

[BigBadBuick]

Since we are slicing these hairs right down the middle, let's think about something for a second. These residual values are based off of MSRP, not actual dollars spent on the vehicle. If you were to buy a $25k car on a 5 year loan at 4.9%, you will spend $3238.30 more for the car than if I buy a $25k car with 0% financing. That's almost a 13% difference in what you are spending out of pocket right off the bat. Now, if you were to throw a rebate or a better negotiated deal my way along with the zero percent, I am going to be paying a lot less for the car. I think you'll find that if you compare actual money spent to purchase a vehicle instead of MSRP to it's resale value, you'll find that their percentage isn't that far from the norm. I feel that GM has shot themselves in the foot with all this 0% and employee pricing bullshit for the short term gain, but I think this is more of an economical issue that GM created for themselves with their shortsightedness rather than a "quality" issue that is hurting their resale which some seem to be trying to suggest. I also would suggest it is more of an "on paper" loss than a loss of "real money" but most people won't realize that and flock to other makes because of what consumer reports says which again, will hurt GM. I agree GM fucked up, probably not for the same reasons as you, but once again, that's not what this thread was about

[John]

what color of cunt hairs are you splitting with that less than %5 difference, red ones or black ones?

I don't know about you, but to me and obviously to the person in question here, 5% is quite a bit of money on a 20k purchase, thats 1000 bucks. Its worth noting.

I feel that GM has shot themselves in the foot with all this 0% and employee pricing bullshit for the short term gain, but I think this is more of an economical issue that GM created for themselves with their shortsightedness rather than a "quality" issue that is hurting their resale which some seem to be trying to suggest. I also would suggest it is more of an "on paper" loss than a loss of "real money" but most people won't realize that and flock to other makes because of what consumer reports says which again, will hurt GM. I agree GM fucked up, probably not for the same reasons as you, but once again, that's not what this thread was about

No where did I mention anything about quality, although others have. I agree with your statements here and we only need to look to Mitsubishi for an example on how to run a decent company into the ground with temporary solutions that will really hurt in the long run.

[_Charles_]

I am the one that mentioned quality, and only on the Chevy Trailblazer. Consumer reports said that chevy trailblazer sucks, but yet they love the tahoe. If I were going to be upside down on a vehicle for a very long time, I wouldn't want to be stuckl with a piece of shit...but hey, that's me.

LIke I said, find a slightly used (2002+) that is below book value, so you can loose alot of that negative equity...

but hey...once again. that's me.

Also, BBB was right. Employee Pricing is nothing more than rebates. (True Employee Pricing is usually Invoice PLUS REBATES!)

Charles

[Jeff]

I would tell her to stick with the car until it's paid off. Then you can sell it, or trade it in. As long as there's nothing wrong with the car, I would just deal with it. There's no reason to put yourself even more in debt.

[Amortized]

No John, this is a financial issue, not a manufacturer issue. She is extremely upside down right now, she will only be further upside down if she buys something else. You can play your childish games and bash GM, but that is doing her a disservice because at the end of the day, she'll be just as fucked in a Toyota, just as fucked in a Nissan, just as fucked in a Ford. The question was about the financial aspect, and that's what I answered. It's not really my fault if no one else could stay on topic. If she stays in the high mileage Ford (oh no, they don't hold resale either, damn american pieces of shit), she'll be better off than if she trades into anything. Sorry I tried to give good advice without tainting it with personal biases, maybe you should try it sometime.

PS, read the title of the thread :wink:

Its just as much a manufacturer issue as it is financial, as some manufacturers tend to hold value better than others. IF she purchases any vehicle, she will be upside down, regardless, she's already upside down. Therefore to minimize her risk and the amount she's upside IF she purchases a vehicle, she should do so from a manufacturer who makes a vehicle that holds value. There's more to it than the way the numbers crunch now, gotta figure out how the numbers might crunch in the future.

[Graves]

No vehicle will hold value. They aren't investments..... unless you bought OJ's Bronco.

[Amortized]

No vehicle will hold value. They aren't investments..... unless you bought OJ's Bronco.

if you want to nit-pick, vehicles do hold value, if not, an '04 BMW could be had for free. I can't find any free ones, so it must be holding value. The point I was making, some hold value longer than others.

[BigBadBuick]

Why in the world are you dragging this back up and trying to argue?

[TNathe]

its done, she got what she WANTED, I made sure she wasn't getting RIPPED OFF /story.

[Jeff]

Congrats to her :)