Oil tax bill

[clear]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/27/energy.taxes.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House approved $18 billion in new taxes on the largest oil companies Wednesday as Democrats cited record oil prices and rising gasoline costs in a time of economic troubles.

I wonder where the oil company's are going to try to make that money back, oh yea, gas prices!

[25psi]

Oil is 100 dollars a barrell, the oil companies don't control that, the market does. With India and China growing the worldwide demand is increasing significantly, if demand rises and supply stays the same prices go up.


The Democrats response? Punish US oil companies for internationally traded commodity prices.

[PPGMD]

I agree all it will do is increase gas prices. Rising oil prices hurt the middle and lower classes the most.

[clear]

Oil is 100 dollars a barrell, the oil companies don't control that, the market does. With India and China growing the worldwide demand is increasing significantly, if demand rises and supply stays the same prices go up.


The Democrats response? Punish US oil companies for internationally traded commodity prices.

Whats not to say the company charges and extra cent per drum now. they will get theres back. Never did i say that the oil company controls the price per barrell

[25psi]

Whats not to say the company charges and extra cent per drum now. they will get theres back. Never did i say that the oil company controls the price per barrell

I was commenting on what the democrats did. Though yeah the new tax definantly won't help at the pump.

[clear]

oh ok biodiesel ftw!

[Joe]

I find it interesting that Congress passes this bill shortly after the "economic stimulus" plan... hmmmm :roll:

[Kryptix]

I couldn't help but smile when I listened to Obama say they wouldn't give up those profits without a fight. :)

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The oil companies are shooting themselves in the foot. It doesn't matter what any informed individual believes or knows, the general population isn't gonna tolerate record oil profits forever. If the oil companies don't increase their alternative fuel research the government is gonna step in - something the government already does much too often.

We are looming on drastic times and the oil companies need to pull their heads out of the sand - literally.

[Scott]

Another example of the government thinking they need to chaperon big business. We are all dumb enough to keep buying less efficient cars so the oil companies are going to keep selling it to us, supply and demand 101. Are the oil companies making stupid profits ? Sure. Isn't that what they are in business to do ?

Want to bring down costs build some damn nuke plants and drill our own damn oil supplies and stop letting people like the Sierra Club indirectly run the country.

[jabtay]

Yay...take from the rich! Damn them for making a profit off the people that demand their product. Exxon doesnt just get their money from gas sales.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

We are all dumb enough to keep buying less efficient cars so the oil companies are going to keep selling it to us, supply and demand 101.

If by "less efficient" you mean "better gas mileage" cars then that is not an alternative. It doesn't matter if we get more MPG or drive fewer miles. The oil companies will simply adjust their pricing to meet their needs, not ours.

Competition in the form of alternative fueled cars is an alternative. When people are buying up hydrogen or electric cars only then will oil prices decrease.

[HullBreach]

What blows my mind on this is the profit margins. Most oil companies are making right around a 10-11% profit.

Starbucks pulls a consistant 13.5% profit margin and I don't see congress calling for taxes and alternative caffine source research spending on their part.

[Kryptix]

What blows my mind on this is the profit margins. Most oil companies are making right around a 10-11% profit.

Starbucks pulls a consistant 13.5% profit margin and I don't see congress calling for taxes and alternative caffine source research spending on their part.

I don't see Starbucks making elleventybillion dollars a quarter in net profit either. I also don't see coffee as being something that everyone needs to be able to do anything. Well... Maybe I'm wrong about that last part.

[HullBreach]

I don't see Starbucks making elleventybillion dollars a quarter in net profit either. I also don't see coffee as being something that everyone needs to be able to do anything. Well... Maybe I'm wrong about that last part.

You have to realize that the profit margin is the return they see on money they lay out initially. So they are laying out hundreds of billions in order to make a 10-11% return for their risks.

Remember these companies arent in buisiness to provide you with fuel. They are in buisiness to make money for their shareholders. As soon as they start doing anything other than that, their shareholders can sue them.

[jabtay]

What blows my mind on this is the profit margins. Most oil companies are making right around a 10-11% profit.

Starbucks pulls a consistant 13.5% profit margin and I don't see congress calling for taxes and alternative caffine source research spending on their part.
Correct, i found an article earlier today about this. it said that crude and gone up 60%, yet the profits only went up 30%.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

In the fourth quarter, the company said revenue rose 29.5% from a year ago
Crude prices skyrocketed nearly 60% last year
Its easy to complain about billions, but when you break it down to percentages, they actually lost profit.

[HullBreach]

Correct, i found an article earlier today about this. it said that crude and gone up 60%, yet the profits only went up 30%.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/



Its easy to complain about billions, but when you break it down to percentages, they actually lost profit.

This is a good point, because if it stops being profitable to invest in these companies, they will whither and die, which would truly cause skyrocketing fuel prices.

[TampaDude]

This is a good point, because if it stops being profitable to invest in these companies, they will whither and die, which would truly cause skyrocketing fuel prices.

Yup...people complain about gas being $3.35 a gallon...wait until there's no more gas!

[HullBreach]

Yup...people complain about gas being $3.35 a gallon...wait until there's no more gas!

As much as I hate spending so much on it, high gas prices don't worry me. Gas rationing or shortages fucking terrify me though, as they do not signify good things to come.

[TampaDude]

As much as I hate spending so much on it, high gas prices don't worry me. Gas rationing or shortages fucking terrify me though, as they do not signify good things to come.

WERD!

[DSG]

I don't see Starbucks making elleventybillion dollars a quarter in net profit either. I also don't see coffee as being something that everyone needs to be able to do anything. Well... Maybe I'm wrong about that last part.


Yes you are wrong and you don't even know wtf you are talking about. Your ignorance shows more and more every day.

Ford and GM are currently operating at a loss but I don't see you going down to the dealer and asking to pay more for their cars? I don't see you bitching about GM having record net losses not too long ago.

I find it odd that people are willing to pay 4.50 for 12 ounces of coffee but bitch about a commodity that is in demand more than any other item on the planet.

[Kryptix]

Yes you are wrong and you don't even know wtf you are talking about. Your ignorance shows more and more every day.

Ford and GM are currently operating at a loss but I don't see you going down to the dealer and asking to pay more for their cars? I don't see you bitching about GM having record net losses not too long ago.

I find it odd that people are willing to pay 4.50 for 12 ounces of coffee but bitch about a commodity that is in demand more than any other item on the planet.

You gotta be kidding me. :lol: I'm just gonna let this one slide.

Little side note here, Oil will cripple this country and perhaps it already has. Coffee will not. Do you need to buy 20 gallons of coffee every couple days? WHy do I even have to say that? Who knows where or what the potential of this country would be if we didn't have to depend on oil. These companies make record billions in net profit per quarter yet gas prices still go up. I don't see a problem with making a huge profit. I do see a problem with ripping a country off. They can afford to pay the tax. If gas prices go up because of this they'll be charged with price gouging as long as they aren't in the pockets of the representatives. If a bill like this gets passed it makes me think that they are not.

Plus, the tax collected will be invested towards cleaner technology which should have been done a long time ago.

[PPGMD]

Price gouging, I don't think that word means what you think it means. The felony of price gouging only applies during emergencies.

Raising prices because their costs have gotten higher because congress passed a law isn't price gouging, it's business. You don't see gas stations paying for the 50 plus cents a gallon for taxes, no when gas taxes go up, they raise their prices to pay for it.

Also there are already Billions invested by the government on alternative energy, and it's usage is becoming pretty wide spread. The only way to increase it would be to mandate solar panels on the top of all new construction.

[HullBreach]

Or start building new proven-safe nuke plants if the goddamn hippies would quit bitching about Yucca mountain.

[Kryptix]

Price gouging, I don't think that word means what you think it means. The felony of price gouging only applies during emergencies.

Raising prices because their costs have gotten higher because congress passed a law isn't price gouging, it's business. You don't see gas stations paying for the 50 plus cents a gallon for taxes, no when gas taxes go up, they raise their prices to pay for it.

Also there are already Billions invested by the government on alternative energy, and it's usage is becoming pretty wide spread. The only way to increase it would be to mandate solar panels on the top of all new construction.
I think they would call it an emergency with a slow economy and unaffordable gas, yet they still make billions in profit every few months.

In response to your last paragraph, this is already planned. That is Hillarys plan to create jobs by doing exactly what you said by forcing us to move forward.

[HullBreach]

I think they would call it an emergency with a slow economy and unaffordable gas, yet they still make billions in profit every few months.

In response to your last paragraph, this is already planned. That is Hillarys plan to create jobs by doing exactly what you said by forcing us to move forward.

Once again, they make billions because they lay out hundreds of billions of which they only see about a 10% additional return. This industry, just like any other buisiness, exists to make money. They do not exist to provide you with gasoline.

And if that last sentence of your post sounds like its right out of some 1930's fascistic propaganda. When governments try to force a market to change, the results are rarely pretty.

[Kryptix]

Once again, they make billions because they lay out hundreds of billions of which they only see about a 10% additional return. This industry, just like any other buisiness, exists to make money. They do not exist to provide you with gasoline.

And if that last sentence of your post sounds like its right out of some 1930's fascistic propaganda. When governments try to force a market to change, the results are rarely pretty.

I already know what you're saying but the fact of the matter is that several problems exist in regards to big oil and something has to be done. You can use percentages to make it look like big oil is the victim here all you want but the profit has consistantly been on the rise for sometime now. Big risk they are taking. WOoooooo. I'm sure they are shaking in their boots. :roll:

[DSG]

You gotta be kidding me. :lol: I'm just gonna let this one slide.

Little side note here, Oil will cripple this country and perhaps it already has. Coffee will not. Do you need to buy 20 gallons of coffee every couple days? WHy do I even have to say that? Who knows where or what the potential of this country would be if we didn't have to depend on oil. These companies make record billions in net profit per quarter yet gas prices still go up. I don't see a problem with making a huge profit. I do see a problem with ripping a country off. They can afford to pay the tax. If gas prices go up because of this they'll be charged with price gouging as long as they aren't in the pockets of the representatives. If a bill like this gets passed it makes me think that they are not.

Plus, the tax collected will be invested towards cleaner technology which should have been done a long time ago.

Oil has made this country what it is, we will oly be the reap what we as a society sow.

No I don't need 20 gallons off coffee every week, but yet every morning on the way to work the line at the Starbucks drive through is around the building, and the one at Dunkin Donuts is just as long if not longer. Those people in line also don't need a Venti Mocha either. The lines are longer at Starbucks than at the gas station.

I dare to ask you what is Starbucks profit margin?

Hullbreach said it like many others have said it and I have said it. Oil companies exist to make a profit like any other business. XOM just happens to have the most of what everybody needs and wants. People in general like to bitch and complain yet they like you Kryptix have no idea how the world works. Also think about this, and I know you wont, but what is the amount of corporate taxes XOM pays the the Govt every year? The more they make the more the pay to uncle sam.

[DSG]

I already know what you're saying but the fact of the matter is that several problems exist in regards to big oil and something has to be done. You can use percentages to make it look like big oil is the victim here all you want but the profit has consistantly been on the rise for sometime now. Big risk they are taking. WOoooooo. I'm sure they are shaking in their boots. :roll:



So how much profit should hey be allowed to make? How can you tell a business how much they are allowed to make.

Why don't you bitch about the amount of taxes you pay to the govt in every gallon of gas you buy?

[whitebread]

i think i'm going to partially break with my free market brethren here. the title says "new taxes." but the body of the article, as well as other places i have seen it reported, indicate that it is the repeal of subsidies.

it seems to me that the idea of subsidies has something in common with leftists that think the government should control oil company profits. both are a transfer of wealth. the leftists want to transfer wealth from the oil companies (and all the pension funds, independent shareholders, ect that have stock in the companies) to those who consume oil and aren't a part of the former group. and the pro-subsidy people want to transfer wealth from those who consume relatively less oil to those who consume relatively more.

i'm all for lower taxes, and i think we should lower corporate taxes at least 15%, but i don't like these corporate welfare programs. i think we should have across the board cuts, not favoratism. but this is also why i'm not really on board with what they are doing here. what they are doing is shifting the corporate welfare, not repealing it.

[whitebread]

I don't see Starbucks making elleventybillion dollars a quarter in net profit either. I also don't see coffee as being something that everyone needs to be able to do anything. Well... Maybe I'm wrong about that last part.
you seem to think that because cheap oil makes your life convenient that you have a right to it. if you lived in a small group on an isolated island you would have access to cheap gasoline? you wouldn't, and thats because you have no natural right to it. you would have your body, and you could use that to produce what you wanted or to produce something and trade that for what you wanted. thats the natural way of things, and nothing about how large the group is that you live in changes that.

the reality is that you can walk or ride a bike to places. you want cheap gasoline because it makes your life more convenient. well, just like other things, people who are willing to pay more for that luxury than you are should be free to obtain it at the choice of the seller. how would you like it if you couldn't buy your copy of noam chomsky's latest masterpiece at the bookstore because it was all sold out to people who had a "right" to buy it for $0.15, when you were willing to pay $5.00 for it?

[jabtay]

you seem to think that because cheap oil makes your life convenient that you have a right to it. if you lived in a small group on an isolated island you would have access to cheap gasoline? you wouldn't, and thats because you have no natural right to it. you would have your body, and you could use that to produce what you wanted or to produce something and trade that for what you wanted. thats the natural way of things, and nothing about how large the group is that you live in changes that.

the reality is that you can walk or ride a bike to places. you want cheap gasoline because it makes your life more convenient. well, just like other things, people who are willing to pay more for that luxury than you are should be free to obtain it at the choice of the seller. how would you like it if you couldn't buy your copy of noam chomsky's latest masterpiece at the bookstore because it was all sold out to people who had a "right" to buy it for $0.15, when you were willing to pay $5.00 for it?
I think im just going to ride this to work and back everyday
http://www.cherrypickerracing.com/images/ruckus/ruckus4.jpg

[Kryptix]

you seem to think that because cheap oil makes your life convenient that you have a right to it. if you lived in a small group on an isolated island you would have access to cheap gasoline? you wouldn't, and thats because you have no natural right to it. you would have your body, and you could use that to produce what you wanted or to produce something and trade that for what you wanted. thats the natural way of things, and nothing about how large the group is that you live in changes that.

the reality is that you can walk or ride a bike to places. you want cheap gasoline because it makes your life more convenient. well, just like other things, people who are willing to pay more for that luxury than you are should be free to obtain it at the choice of the seller. how would you like it if you couldn't buy your copy of noam chomsky's latest masterpiece at the bookstore because it was all sold out to people who had a "right" to buy it for $0.15, when you were willing to pay $5.00 for it?
That is not what I was thinking. Nice try though. I appreciate your effort. :lol: Which twisted philosophy do you believe in? lol

I'm thinking about our future. Our national sovereignty. The quicker we get off the oil the better. Better for our economy, better for our environment, better for military strategy. It's not just about ripping us off you know. What ever happened to that American ingenuity?

[PPGMD]

That is not what I was thinking. Nice try though. I appreciate your effort. :lol: Which twisted philosophy do you believe in? lol

I'm thinking about our future. Our national sovereignty. The quicker we get off the oil the better. Better for our economy, better for our environment, better for military strategy. It's not just about ripping us off you know. What ever happened to that American ingenuity?

Our American Ingenuity works best when there is profit to be made. And there is plenty of it look up Nano Solar, or Pacwind. Among other companies, the companies that make the large wind mills have huge back log. There is a company is Texas looking to turn off the old off shore oil rigs into wind mills. We also have coal which has become much much cleaner to burn in the last decade, and nuclear power.

But there is going to be no way to rid America of the need for oil, oil is the only way to power aircraft, it's used to make many of our consumer goods, and it's used to a myriad of other uses.

[whitebread]

That is not what I was thinking. Nice try though. I appreciate your effort. :lol: Which twisted philosophy do you believe in? lol

I'm thinking about our future. Our national sovereignty. The quicker we get off the oil the better. Better for our economy, better for our environment, better for military strategy. It's not just about ripping us off you know. What ever happened to that American ingenuity?
i believe in the twisted philosophy of freedom.

well, if what you care about is getting off oil, then wouldn't you be happy to have oil companies "ripping us off?" the higher the price of oil, the quicker the transition to alternative forms of energy. many of which are only practical at high energy prices. so if oil companies really are artificially driving up the price of energy, making alternative energies viable, why would you be mad about that?

[Kryptix]

i believe in the twisted philosophy of freedom.

well, if what you care about is getting off oil, then wouldn't you be happy to have oil companies "ripping us off?" the higher the price of oil, the quicker the transition to alternative forms of energy. many of which are only practical at high energy prices. so if oil companies really are artificially driving up the price of energy, making alternative energies viable, why would you be mad about that?

Actually, I think it would be good for the same reasons you stated. I've said the same thing before on this forum. Of course it would totally suck for awhile but people would adapt.

[PPGMD]

Actually, I think it would be good for the same reasons you stated. I've said the same thing before on this forum. Of course it would totally suck for awhile but people would adapt.


The adaption will be better for the nation when it's done naturally. People are already moving to alternate forms of energy.

[Kryptix]

The adaption will be better for the nation when it's done naturally. People are already moving to alternate forms of energy.

Yes and it's about time. Hopefully, it will happen at a much faster pace. I'd like to be able to drive an electric car to work in the next 5 years or so. This reminds me of an interesting documentary called 'Who Killed The Electric Car'. If you get a chance check it out.

[DSG]

Yes and it's about time. Hopefully, it will happen at a much faster pace. I'd like to be able to drive an electric car to work in the next 5 years or so. This reminds me of an interesting documentary called 'Who Killed The Electric Car'. If you get a chance check it out.

Go and buy a Chevy Volt later next year and your dream will come true.

[Kryptix]

Go and buy a Chevy Volt later next year and your dream will come true.

Neato. Thanks for that. Production is set for late 2010 and they're only making 10,000 of them for some reason.

[Moneymk805]

i dont see why we cant drill our own oil....we should be drilling off florida right now!!! all politics and $$$

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

i dont see why we cant drill our own oil....we should be drilling off florida right now!!! all politics and $$$

Blame the people. The only way any FL drilling would happen is if 70% of the people voted for it. The greenies would overpower anything less.

[Moneymk805]

Damn tree huggers.

[Kryptix]

Blame the people. The only way any FL drilling would happen is if 70% of the people voted for it. The greenies would overpower anything less.

Don't forget to blame OPEC and the federal government for not allowing higher fuel standards.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Don't forget to blame OPEC and the federal government for not allowing higher fuel standards.

WTF do you mean "higher fuel standards?"

[Kryptix]

WTF do you mean "higher fuel standards?"

lol You're joking right? Remember what Ahnuld of California tried to do recently by making automobiles with higher fuel standards and the feds stepped in and said no? We've had close to the same fuel standards for years while other countries pass us.

[clear]

We should invest more money into alt fuels, like biodiesel

[PPGMD]

lol You're joking right? Remember what Ahnuld of California tried to do recently by making automobiles with higher fuel standards and the feds stepped in and said no? We've had close to the same fuel standards for years while other countries pass us.

Fuel standards should be federal level, not state level.

[Kryptix]

Fuel standards should be federal level, not state level.

I disagree.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Fuel standards should be at the consumer level. We currently have a choice to purchase 50mpg cars and 20mpg cars. That's the way it should be.

[HullBreach]

Fuel standards should be at the consumer level. We currently have a choice to purchase 50mpg cars and 20mpg cars. That's the way it should be.

Absolutely.

Now, if we had a standardized blend of gasoline that was used across the whole country, that would cause an almost immediate drop in gas prices as the rifineries wouldn't be stopping production to switch blends all the time.

[Scott]

Absolutely.

Now, if we had a standardized blend of gasoline that was used across the whole country, that would cause an almost immediate drop in gas prices as the rifineries wouldn't be stopping production to switch blends all the time.



That's what I'm saying !

Why in hell does the mix in Georgia need to be different from Florida and so on ? I have a hunch who pushed this different blends of fuel laws through, anyone know for sure ?


-

[Kryptix]

Fuel standards should be at the consumer level. We currently have a choice to purchase 50mpg cars and 20mpg cars. That's the way it should be.

Nah. I still disagree. They can do better. A quick google search on United STates fuel standards and I found some baffling information.

The United States has the lowest average fuel economy among first world nations; the European Union and Japan have fuel economy standards about twice as high as the United States.

If the average fuel economy of a manufacturer's annual fleet of car and/or truck production falls below the defined standard, the manufacturer must pay a penalty, currently $5.50 USD per 0.1 mpg under the standard, multiplied by the manufacturer's total production for the U.S. domestic market. What I found baffling is that a number of manufacturers choose to pay the penalties rather than comply to the standards.

When the senators and representatives fight for new bills to raise fuel standards they get shot down by special interests groups.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

You can raise standards to 100mpg if you want. It won't change a damn thing in your wallet. Without a competitive fuel source the oil companies have no worries.

The ONLY thing that will drop gas prices is competition in the form of hydrogen cars, electric cars, solar cars, etc.

[Kryptix]

You can raise standards to 100mpg if you want. It won't change a damn thing in your wallet. Without a competitive fuel source the oil companies have no worries.

The ONLY thing that will drop gas prices is competition in the form of hydrogen cars, electric cars, solar cars, etc.
You're saying that less demand wouldn't help the strain on our wallets? This is why I hate debating with people on this board. If I say 2 things and someone thinks one of things I said is wrong they completely ignore what I said was right and focus on proving me wrong. Then when I explain why I am right I get an answer like the one above. You can raise standards all you want it won't change a damn thing is what you're saying. You're saying why should we even bother. Because we're being wasteful and it's poor engineering. Also, what you're thinking proves me even more in the right if you think that way about big oil and how they are just ripping us off and they need to pay for the wrongs they have done to the world. That's basically what you are saying.

Tax the oil companies up the ass! Take them over. Fuck em. They have become a national security issue, an economic issue and ethical issue. Perhaps even the middle class wouldn't have to pay taxes. What would happen to the economy if the poor and middle classes didn't have to pay taxes? BOOM maybe!?! Haha I love my posts. :love:

[25psi]

Nah. I still disagree. They can do better. A quick google search on United STates fuel standards and I found some baffling information.

The United States has the lowest average fuel economy among first world nations; the European Union and Japan have fuel economy standards about twice as high as the United States.

If the average fuel economy of a manufacturer's annual fleet of car and/or truck production falls below the defined standard, the manufacturer must pay a penalty, currently $5.50 USD per 0.1 mpg under the standard, multiplied by the manufacturer's total production for the U.S. domestic market. What I found baffling is that a number of manufacturers choose to pay the penalties rather than comply to the standards.

When the senators and representatives fight for new bills to raise fuel standards they get shot down by special interests groups.

Sure you could raise fuel efficiency standards, but its not like the automakers are just lazy and produce a low MPG car "just because they can", short of producing small, lightweight cars with little power, building high MPG cars costs more money.Seen the price of that hybrid Tahoe?


As gas prices increase the market demand fuel higher fuel efficiency and alternatives will increase and the market will transition accordingly. Seen how many Prius's(Prii?) have been driving around lately?

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

You're saying that less demand wouldn't help the strain on our wallets?

Yes, that is what I am saying. I've explained this before, I'll explain it again.

As with any business the oil companies have to make a certain amount of money to stay in business. If all cars got 50mpg people would be using less gas and the oil companies would have to raise the price of gas to cover their huge expenses. Those big profits everybody is bitching about amount to about 5 cents per gallon and BTW nobody really gave a shit about the industry during the years the oil companies were losing their asses.

If you wanna get pissed at the oil industry, get pissed at OPEC. Those are the fuckers getting rich. And what they do with their profits is much more obscene than what corporate oil does with theirs.

[adric]

You're saying that less demand wouldn't help the strain on our wallets? This is why I hate debating with people on this board. If I say 2 things and someone thinks one of things I said is wrong they completely ignore what I said was right and focus on proving me wrong. Then when I explain why I am right I get an answer like the one above. You can raise standards all you want it won't change a damn thing is what you're saying. You're saying why should we even bother. Because we're being wasteful and it's poor engineering. Also, what you're thinking proves me even more in the right if you think that way about big oil and how they are just ripping us off and they need to pay for the wrongs they have done to the world. That's basically what you are saying.

Tax the oil companies up the ass! Take them over. Fuck em. They have become a national security issue, an economic issue and ethical issue. Perhaps even the middle class wouldn't have to pay taxes. What would happen to the economy if the poor and middle classes didn't have to pay taxes? BOOM maybe!?! Haha I love my posts. :love:
"This is why I hate debating with people on this board."

Bold faced lie, otherwise why are you always doing so?

[Kryptix]

"This is why I hate debating with people on this board."

Bold faced lie, otherwise why are you always doing so?

Because of the urge to prove myself right? Get outta here. :lol: